Survey: Your Spec In PVP
Almost one month has passed since the release of The Burning Crusade. The rush to level 70 has ended for many of the Paladins. And the next question arise… what’s next? Well there’re only two routes to choose. Pve or pvp… or both. Anyway, in this entry, I’m specifically after pvp builds.
You see, with so many viable builds floating around TBC, I am curious to know about how most paladins will spec in PVP. What are the new cookie-cutter builds? Would a rare and weird looking build triumph over a common but powerful build as your opponents were not expecting something different? Is Holy really the new damage tree for PVP as some claimed?
Show me your specs on Wowhead.com and we can have a healthy discussion of various builds! You don’t have to be a 70 to post your desired build ya know. Oh, and a little reasoning behind your spec would do no harm. :)
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Geo said,
February 14, 2007 at 6:20 am
Sup paladins,
Ok first off I would like to say that there is no wrong build as long as it justifies your playing style. Some talents will benefit another paladin more so then someone else based on gear, hotkeys, weapons, and strategies.
I cant link wowhead from work so I have to bust out the old text build and hope that would be enough for those reading.
With that being said let me begin with some of my unique builds that have done well for me in pvp i’ll leave 3.
First I would like to unlock to my paladins my fun experimental 2 hander build that I feel is overlook and out damages the standard cookie cutter retribution crusader strike spec.
People had lots of doubts about reckoning after the revise talent was implemented. I am here to clarify those doubts and to ensure all who try out this spec will fight hard to go back to anything else.
First thing you will need is a 2 HANDED WEAPON!
If you can find one with a base proc on it, it will make you even more deadly. I dont care if its stun, deep wounds, spell damage, debuff whatever just find one with a base weapon proc you’ll love yourself more once you do.
3.8 or higher you get 2 swings in per reckoning proc
3.4 or lower you get 3 swings in per proc
2.1 or lower you will get 4 swings per proc ( stormspire vendor 1.6 polearm level 66)
Now that you got that out of the way the next thing you want is a full set of primary agility secondary stamina tetriary strength gear every piece. If you have some strength intellect or agility intellect thats fine too if your happy with your stamina and health. This is a crit build and will outshine all dps builds if your gear is set like this.
Last but not least go get yourself a fiery enchant or an enchant spell proc that is capable of critical hits. Yes I know people say fiery enchant on a 2 hander but why thats pointless ill explain in a sec, but just get it haha!
Ok you got all your toys now skip to the trainer and lets have some fun wipe those talents clean :0D !
First things first protection talent tree
5 in devotion aura (you wont be using a shield since its a 2 handed build)
3 in percision (when your reckoning goes off you dont want to miss)
2 guardian favor (Blessing of Freedom 16 secs for those pesky kiters and BOP 3 min cooldown which lets you use it more often on meleers)
1 point in Blessing of Kings if your a huge fan of it and would rather use it then Blessing of might if not put that point in anticipation
1/2 Anticipation
2 Stocism 30% dispell resistance 10% stun resist ( pesky rogues, priest shamans)
3 Improved hammer of justice(stuns for heals and judgements and interupts)
5 Reckoning( the bread and butter of your all your damage)
2 Sacred Duty(6% stamina increase 4 min bubbles and 100% free to swing on mobs with no bubble delay! This is how you kill people grouped or when the odds are against you!)
Ok protection is done now jump to retribution
5 points in Blessing of Might (more attack power = harder hits unless you love blessing of kings then go benediction but I went 5 BOM and skipped Kings)
3 improved seal of crusader (15% increased judgements and needed later)
2 improved judgement(more dps on judgements)
1 seal of command ( #1 dps seal in the game hands down!)
2 pursuit of justice(no one fights paladins they kite and you need this to catch them period and with this build they will run from you trust me :0D!)
2 Vindication (debuffs melee and increases your chances to hit with lower agility)
5 convition ( this is a crit build remember !)
2 eye for a eye (if a caster is going to crit you make them at least pay for it)
3 improved 2 hander (6% + dmg on 2 hander weapons thank you very much)
5 vengeance(10% incease damage from all attacks on crits this will be up all the time)
If you dont like vindication you can put those 2 points in crusade or 1 point in vindication and 1 in Santicty aura. But remember 5 points in devotion aura would be a waist if you dont ever have it on but more dps go SA.
1 repentance (stop caster no heal fo you! :0) its a great ability)
3 improved crusader with crit % 3(so when you just crusader your crit rate goes up)
Ok all done!!
Now about fiery enchant when it crits your holy power is up which will increase your overall damage with holy vengeance being up constantly! Fiery enchant isn’t for the damage its for the proc.
Now when reckoning goes off this happends frequently!
Weapon proc/vindication/fiery enchant/seal of command x 3
in those 3 swings you should get 2-3 crits if not more depending on your crit rate! The more you can crit the more damage you will do period!
And after your first crit your increase vengeance and the next 2 swings crit and hit for even higher damage.
Reckoning goes off every fight period! And sometimes 2-3 times which =’s they just got there arses handed to them. This build by far out damages cookie cutter crusader builds and has been my only build that I have that I can consistantly own warlocks our harded class to kill!
With this build you can pretty much defeat any class. If you have a problem with a specific class let me know and ill tell you how I kill them.
Blessing dont stay on for long for most classes try to slow you down with wing clip, concussive shots, hamstrings, crippling poisons, frost bolts, curse of exhaustions, roots, snares, ect. Which is why Benediction may be the better choice due to Blessing of freedom being used more then the rest of the blessings.
What most people dont do is use level 1 blessing of sacrifice on group pvp this will keep you from bubbling early and keey people from taking you out of the fight.
Once your about to die bubble you should have reckoning up continue to fight normarlly till you have 4-5 secs left. If you can’t kill the timer, get your 2 holy lights in and continue the barrage of attacks.
So in the end if you want to go 2 hander and do well this build will out shine any other build. I just pray I dont run into a paladin now rocking my build haha! That would suck!
But its all about showing everyone that we own so have fun with it and let me know what you think.
I’ll leave a great protection build and Shockadin build later.
Geo
Level 70 Paladin Neela Demonsoul PVP
J said,
February 14, 2007 at 5:59 pm
Based on your post, this is the build that I see: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=qZxG00gh0gZVfMtr0hVco
Quite different from what I have in mind.
For one I would not take Devotion Aura over Redoubt. Redoubt would be very useful when you switch to 1h + shield, which is more likely to happen then using Devo Aura. Another reason is that, I would be using Sanctity Aura and thus Devotion Aura is out of the question for me.
Then I personally wouldn’t put any points into Imp Crusader and Sanctified Crusader. Reason being that, I feel that a fight is happening too quickly to fully utilizes the benefits. It is in my opinion more of pve talents. I would rather save my cooldowns for Justice or Command.
As for Vindication, we don’t normally have problems fighting Rogues/Warriors so I do not feel that it’s that useful. It also does not affect all the casters at all which is a waste.
PoJ, wouldn’t it be better to just have a boot enchant and save the two talent points?
With a bit of adjustment, I think I will go into this build instead: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=qZVGz0Th0gZVbhtMcui0o
Main difference is Imp Sanctity Aura, which increases the damage and healings, also useful when you get heals and it restores your mana.
And that I would use BoK over BoM for its Stamina increase.
Others are more or less the same. :)
Anyway, have you tried the build under Arena? I have a feeling that Reckoning will not work so well unless you have a couple of persons hitting on you. I have not tested it out myself yet but just wondering if you may have done that.
Geo said,
February 15, 2007 at 6:13 am
Hey J,
I thought the same thing 10% …. 10% hmmm , 10% nah… lol, something just doesn’t sound right. What you dont realize is that in pvp people attack with mutiple hits and your reckoning will go off once twice sometimes 3 times.
Its no different from a build before 2.0 with paladins having seal of command as the main dps tool but now being blessed with rekoning as a bonus.
After about 6 hours of rep farming and 100 arena pvp matches here is what I came up with and the reasons why I juggled some things.
I picked up redoubt 5 points as well its a great talent and definately better then devotion aura. DA just doesn’t do anything, it doesn’t absorb enough damage and frankly is a waiste as a talent for the small effects it has.
Blessing of kings is a luxuryy thing and more pve then pvp but only cost 1 talent point and is worth that point. 1 point in shield absorb is better then anticipation for the times you do pick up a shield. Everything else is the same in protection.
Retribution
I went back to benediction 5 points. Blessing of kings is nice when its on but like I said before Blessing of freedom and Sacrafice will be your main blessing in arena pvp period or any pvp.
Mage - frost bolts/frost nova/ice armor/sheep/slow/frostbite
Hunters - wing clip/freeze traps/daze auto shots/concussive shot/ice trap
Warriors - hamstring
Rogues - crippling poison/sap/gouge
Druids - Cyclone/entangle roots/kitty gouge
Warlocks - Curse of exhaustion/seduce
Priest - mind flay
Paladin - seal of justice/repentance
Now with that list as you can see the fight always begins with kings and ends with freedom and sacrafice rank 1. so putting points into any blessing for pvp I feel is just a waist for it will get dispelled or wiped with those 2 blessings.
I still go with 3 in improved crusader cause its a crit build and I use it all the time 3% crit and harder hitting seal of command judgements when i stun or repentance the target.
I only put 1 point in vindication for debuff so that my crusader doesn’t easily get debuffed off targets. But if I dont put it their then 1 points would go into crusade.
2 eye for eye still
3 improve 2 hander
1 in santicty aura(way better the DA and increase damage of soc greatly)
The rest the same.
Also I have the Avenger libram from the Maker in Blood furn so when I judge a target its 5% increase crit rate plus 3% crit from sanctified crusade = 8% on top of my 20% base crit rate. Heck I could even pull out sanctified orb for another 4-5% crit or a melee trinket that would push it to 30% crit overall in the first 5 secs of fight and every time I judge a target.
That is huge for your seals would crit more and holy vengeance will be on more frequently and you can lay on fast hard pressure at the beginnging opening up with huge numbers.
Since I always check this at work I will have to link my wowhead.com build when I get home since I dont have access to it on this pc. Darn game filters lol!
But besides that those are the things I changed but here are a few things I found out while pvping
1 You can cast blessing of protection when sapped and cycloned
2 Redoubt and reckoning can get debuff by purge and dispell
3 You can still get dispelled even with divine shield on
Now I will be reporting these issues to the gm today since when I learned this it was very late. Redoube and reckoning are not spells cast or buffs they are reactive melee abilities that are passive on percentage not spells. This is clearly a bug in my eyes and I hope they address this one soon.
But this also points out why Stoicism is extremely important and why you should always have rank 1 seal of command hot keyed and rank 1 blessings for those happy dispeller purgers they try to see who will run out of mana first playing buff wipe buff cast soc wipe cast ect.
In the end reckoning still out shines crusader at this time, it going off once a fight replaces the crusaders you cast during a fight. But reckoning goes off twice sometimes 3 times a fight which then absolutely destroys dps comparisons to crusader strike even if they were all crits.
I appreciate the feedback and enjoy tinkering builds for perfection.
Let me know what you think
Geo
Level 70 Paladin Neela Demonsoul PVP
Geo said,
February 15, 2007 at 9:09 am
Hey J and paladins,
here is a link to my current build now after all that grinding yesterday!
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=aZVGzhRh0gZVfztr0uVco
Sure you can juggle a few points here and their for your own preference their is no wrong build. But in the end reckoning seems to be the most damaging build we have for 2 handers.
Enjoy!
Geo
Level 70 Paladin Neela Demonsoul PVP
J said,
February 15, 2007 at 12:31 pm
Reason why I chose BoK over BoM is that… personally I feel that when utilizing Reckoning, Stamina is a bigger concern over Strength or Attack Power. And when you have a larger hp pool in pvp, you won’t get one or two shotted by mages/warlocks anymore so you will have the time to go upfront, stunlock… unload all your damages.
You are absolutely right that blessings get replaced all the time in pvp. As for BoK, well…. after the initial 10% of hp that the extra stamina is being taken away, replacing BoK essentially give you full health again. So you don’t exactly lose much.
And is there any reason why don’t you choose Crusade? I thought 3% increase of humanoid (players) is pretty sweet.
I would also put 2 points into Imp. Sanctity Aura just so that I get more mana back when being healed.
Kern said,
February 16, 2007 at 3:46 am
Geo, you have too much time on your hands my friend ;)
My proposed PvP build, based off of a convo with Esotarious a while back.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=qEx0MZZxf0tMcuVIkt
Geo said,
February 16, 2007 at 4:24 am
Sup Kern,
LOL I actually don’t I am always at work or doing something I usually post a few comments on my lunch break and dont look again till the next day.
I can’t currently look at your build due to the game sites being blocked but ill comment on it when I get home.
NEWS FLASH!!!!!
After a hour chatting with a GM apparently the new Priest spell MASS DISPELL can randomly debuff any buff that is currently on a target.
Now I argued that divine shield specifically says that you are protected for 12 secs from all damage and spell attacks and that Mass Dispell is a magical attack is it not?
He claims that it over writes the oringinal standards and is a superior debuff that outshines the boundaries of normal purges, spell steals, and dispells.
Not only that I argued that redoubt and reckoning are reactive melee abilities and not spells or buffs but according to Blizz they are still dispellable.
hmmm….. I thought to myself thats the stupidiest bs I ever heard and its basically saying that even though a warrior has no mana they can wipe shield wall and or retaliation. Or a cold blood from a rogue, or better yet a hamstring I mean come on Blizz. Melee is melee and they shouldn’t mix the 2. According to his comments but i will hit up the suggestion forms with this topic cause im not cool with the results of last nights conversation.
I finally obtained my Aldor exalted blade last night and I built my first maxed 1 handed damage build. The speed was 2.6 and the dps with 10% 1 hander damage and 3% crusade was about 88 overall before stats. Seal of command procs are nice and sancticty aura increased that damage.
But sad to say SOC didn’t proc enough for my taste and I did more damage with reckoning with seal of righteousness. Yeah I know tell me about it but what was cool that I found out was.
With 500+ spell damage , sanctity aura, Holy veangeance proc on crits, and 120 spell dmg 15 sec trinket. I was hitting for 280+ a pop with the seal on top of a 300+ base damage swing with no crit.
600 total a swing on average while judging 900 SOR every 8 secs for based damage was very nice. Not only that I had holy shield, blessing san, and shield spike. So I was dishing out good solid damage and returning damage back on to attackers.
I took out a level 70 hunter and 70 rogue mutiple times last night when questing in shadowmoon. I apprently pissed them off and it happend to be a big time pvp ganking guild called Plague.
Im over their minding my own business looting tablets and fighting 3 mobs as usual. I see horde there but I usually give them grace that you dont bother me i dont bother you. Well apparently when I only had 15% health left a hunter felt hmm lets gank him while he is low.
Silly rabit tricks are for kids I giggled and bubbled full heal crit then went in for the pwnage. Silly hunter tries to kite me in a highly infest mob area evening out the battle that was already 2vs1. I die the first time and they die on mobs.
I come back with vengence hovering on my flying mount waiting to return the favor. I see my opputunity and go in pwnage style killing them both. They came back I killed them both again but died from mob after slaying 70 rogue. We played cat and mouse on flying mounts for 5 mins then I tried to get my last tablets soon as I touch ground hunter plucking away. god bless freedom cause I tap dance through all the snares and killed him. But guess what during the process they apparently called 2 more so I had a 70 druid and another rogue gg.
So in conclusion skill
Geo said,
February 16, 2007 at 4:25 am
So in conclusion skill
Geo said,
February 16, 2007 at 4:27 am
To be continued here
So in conclusion skill
J said,
February 16, 2007 at 8:57 pm
Geo: Lol… you never did finish your post.
Mass dispel’s news is pretty old actually. People has been talking about it since beta. Good thing though, it costs 1k to cast and it only dispels a random buff. So throw everything up that you can like Righteous fury etc before you cast Divine Shield. Hopefully that would minimize the chances of dispelling your shield.
But I have to agree that melee abilities should stay melee and not to be dispelled. And I feel that the makes sense logically.
Anyway, I have been debating with myself that maybe Seal of Righteousness would be better for a Reckoning build… Or even Seal of Vengeance. Seal of Command seem like a waste that doesn’t maximize the extra hits.
Kern: That’s a very interesting build. If my Ret/Prot reckoning spec does not work out so well, will definitely try that one!
Geo said,
February 17, 2007 at 3:24 am
Hey J,
If your going 2 hander you will be using seal of command period. If you dont see enough procs find a 3.4 or slower and keep your crit rate at 18% or higher. You’ll see tons of progress and damage.
Now if you are going 1 hander if you have a super fast weapon 1.6-2.1ish then go vengeance but if your weapon is 2.9-2.4ish go seal of righteous.
It basically comes down to how much + damage gear you have. 5 stacks of vengeance caps at 280ish a tick x 4 but you have to build up to that to maximize your judgements. I still judge whenever its up but 5 stacks are the bigger hits.
Now with seal of righteous you get 250+ a swing from the start and I also judge for about 850+ a pop with 475+ dmg gear. So basically If your on a easy mob that will die fast use SOR cause you won’t have time to build up 5 stacks if your weapon isn’t fast enough.
In long battles seal of vengeance will win with dots re ticking and stacking with harder judgements. But in the end they are both good I am using SOR for the moment with my Aldor exalted sword 2.6 spd 78.1 dps.
You can also juggle the two for maximum 1 hander dps. Stacking 5 vengeance then judge. Recast Seal of Right get in 3-4 rounds depending on weapon speed then recast vengeance and rejudge and stack that last tick to keep it on.
It takes a bit more mana but you push your dps even higher and will mow mobs down faster. It takes timing and dot counting and the need for impoved judgement to pull it off flawlessly. But with reckoning you shouldn’t have any trouble with this combo so test it out im always experimenting and it works best when you mix the two.
Geo
Level 70 Paladin Neela Demonsoul PVP
Iliya said,
February 17, 2007 at 5:51 am
Hey, first time poster here; hoping that my two cents could help.
Throughout the entire guide, I didn’t notice seeing Improved Righteous Fury anywhere.
Though, it is true that the entire thing is used for grabbing aggro in PvE, I can see that extra %6 damage reduction to all damage could be helpful when one leasts expect it.
Unless I’m wrong and I need to L2P more.
-Iliya, lvl65, Vek’Nilash
Nive said,
February 17, 2007 at 10:24 pm
Okay, this is the build that I’m thinking for my end game, and want your guy’s exceptional critique of. ;-)
Here’s the build: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=qVxhMtzhxoZZVfotMczi
Holy spec up to Holy Shock and Retribution up to Vengeance (31.0.30) and using as much +Spell Damage gear available.
The theory goes, using the servivability and mana effieciency of your healing capabilities to ‘outlast’ their mana pool or initial attacks. Equiped with shield and one-hander, maybe using seal of blood with the faster 1-hand weap (I’m Boold Elf).
Then, at the moment of opportunity, you switch from defensive to offensive, pull out the big two-hander, and hit with SoC, then HoJ, Holy shock, JoC, and Hammer of Wrath till they die.
Or at least thats the idea =p
I guess playing like a caster while still keeping melee capability (especially for SoC to wear down until you use your instant damage spells)
I hope you’d have plenty of opportunity to proc Vengeance with your spells and self heal here and there (I think of having lots of intellect giving +spell crit). Plus, you get it for sure with the reliable Divine favor when you go in for the kill.
This leaves me with a few questions like
a) what kind of burst damage is possible, if any, with mostly instant spells?
b) Outlasting must be a valid strategy in the arenas (me thinks). Do you use it much?
c) +Spell damage for a pally, How good a road to take?
Okay, thats that. I also like this one because, for PvE instances, I’ll be a decent healer.
I have no experience with Reckoning, but through this site, I gotta try it with AoE shield spike multi mob killing. I will definitely try it out for leveling the 40’s and 50’s.
My Paladin (Lyceios on emerald dream) is now lvl 39 and is my highest character, (I’m relatively new to the WoW universe), so I have much yet to experiment with!
Thanks for the discussion space J, totally enjoy the site.
J said,
February 19, 2007 at 7:15 pm
Geo: I was talking about Seals in Reckoning. SoC seems to be wasted when you have a lot of hits going on and only 7 procs per minute. SoR or SoV could be better in that sense. But I have to point out that SoC and Reckoning proccing together could be devastating.
Iliya: Imp Righteous Fury is good. But when compared to Anticipation, I’m not sure which is better.
I have been trying to research on Imp Righteous Fury vs Anticipation and see which is better. But the maths involve is… terrible. Will take sometime to work out. And my reasoning for not choosing it is that, I feel that spending too many points into defense and not offense will gimp your ability in killing people, especially if you’re going 2h. 1h + shield however, all these defense talents that allow you to outlast others are great for you.
Nive: I will get back to you on this. I’m hoping to post a rather long reply but is slightly occupied at the moment sorry.
Geo said,
February 21, 2007 at 1:16 am
Sup J and lliya,
With a slow 3.8 or slower you will see a SOC hit every 2 - 3 hits. With a high crit build around 18% or higher overall crit with improved sanctified crusader. You will crit every other hit and your seal of commands will crit with your melee weapon. The think that makes seal of command much more deadlier then SOR and SOV is its crit ability.
Ok with here is a example with 6 swings: With 1 reckoning proc on a 3.8 dps wpn
You swing
crit 800 SOR 350(normal
hit 380 SOR 347(reckon
crit 1097 SOR 352(reck
hit 401 SOR 350reck
crit 987 SOR 348(reck
Total 3665 white dmg and 1747 for a grand total of (5412)
Not bad not bad at all :0)
Now lets look at vengeance same numbers
crit 800 SOV Tick 1 190 x 4(1 tick
hit 380 SOV Tick 2 210 x 4(0 tick
crit 1097 SOV Tick 3 240 x 4(1 tick
hit 401 SOV Tick 4 280 x 4(0 tick
crit 987 SOV Tick 5 300 x 4(2 tick
Total 3665 white dmg 1030 SOV dmg with a continuation of 300 a tick as long as the SOV continues to be renewed. Total damage 4695. But you do judge for 200+ more damage then seal of righteous but you have to build up to that and seal of righteous you can just burn judgements from the beginning.
Now for Seal of Command
crit 800 SOC 650(normal
hit 380 SOC Nothing(reck
crit 1097 SOC 1252(reck
hit 401 SOC 1550(reck
crit 987 SOC Nothing(reck
Total 3665 whit damage 3452 SOC dmg for a grand total 7117 and if you choose to stun the targe and judge you’ll get 800 base hit and close to 2k on crit hits on stun targets.
Sometimes its less then this sometimes its more. The slower the weapon the better chance of procs and if you have enchant on that increases crit chance proc with San aura and holy power vengeance you’ll do even more damage. Also if you have a 2 hander with a base proc its lights out for them but these are just base numbers.
As for Seal of Righteous, you can easily have one item replace the same stats as anticipation. Not only that it only protects you from melee and Righteous fury protects from all damage by 6%. ROF FTW!!! Even if your a 2 hander spec the point is you want to get down to Reckoning and Sacred Duty for that will be your easy win button when in fights!
Now for lliya ^_^
How are you !? You have a nice level 70 build for maximum offensive damage with holy shock and judgements. If you have a deep pool of mana and alot of + spell damage gear you can do really well. A decent combo will go like this
Cast Seal of Crusader
Judge Seal of the Crusader
Cast Seal of command
1 or 2 swings
Cast Hammer of Justice
Use trinket
Judge Seal of command
Cast Divine Favor
Cast Holy shock
Cast Seal of Righteous 1 hander seal of command again if you have 2 hander
With a 1 handed weapon SOC is only good being used as judgements on stunned targets. If the target isnot stunned judge with Seal of Right till you get Seal of Blood.
I personally wouldn’t give up Redoubt and Guardian Favor talents. the extra 6 secs help too much cause every class tries to kite paladins. No one wants to fight a paladin head up in PVP. The blocking helps out alot on melee and blessing of freedom helps us own casters,hunters, and kiters.
But in the end its a good build if you can give up those abilities.
Geo
Level 70 Paladin Demonsoul PVP
Geo said,
February 21, 2007 at 2:13 am
Hey Nive,
Sorry that last part was to you. For the build and the combo comments! If you have anymore feed back let me know.
Geo
J said,
February 22, 2007 at 9:56 am
Geo: I guess I will have to test it out myself extensively. :)
Nive: 31/30 is definitely a viable build. I have a look at your build and have made a few adjustments:
[1] http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=qVxhMgzhxoZZVbhtMcum
[2] http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sAxh0xzhxoZZVbhtMcuV
[3] http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=qVxhMtzhxoZZVfotMczi
[1] is a slight adjustment to your original build. [2] is slightly more melee-orientated. [3] is very melee-orientated.
Maybe you can experiment with the builds and see which one you like the best.
And to answer your question.
a) Holy has arguably the best burst damage. Just that it comes with a huge cost unlike Retribution tree. You will need to make sure that you have a lot of mana to sustain your damage.
Hammer of Justice
Trinket
Judgement of Command 1k-2k
Melee Attack 500
Holy Shock 1k-3k
Consecration
etc
And you can drop an enemy into Hammer of Wrath range and kill him. Of course it doesn’t look that easy or we will be overpowered, you will need very nice spell damage gears.
b) Outlasting in Arena may be good or may be bad. It’s quite hard to theorycraft here. I mean, a mage can 2-shot you and there’s no way you can outlast him. But on the other hand if you’re fighting a warrior or a rogue, or even multiple of them, outlasting them and slowly grinding them down is definitely viable. I would say that, each build definitely has its pros and cons, so just choose one where you are the most comfortable with.
I’m also worried that, if your survivability is unmatched by your teammates, your opponents would just shut you down via cc and concentrate on your teammates before on you. And then it may not be that effective anymore. So I guess it also comes down to your team formation. I could foresee that it works very well with a group of multiple paladins though.
c) Spell damage is definitely a good way to go. Not only it helps Holy Shock, it helps Seal of Command too. Seal of Command receives 20% coefficient from normal +spell damage stats, and 29% from +holy damage stats. Apart from that, I think it effects healing too. Something along the line of 2x the number. I can’t seem to confirm it via a quick search so maybe someone can confirm it for me.
However, it’s likely that you won’t get much of it before 60. So… might be better stacking the other stats instead if you can’t find any spell damage items.
Oh, and Vengeance does not affect healings. Only damages.
Nive said,
February 22, 2007 at 2:15 pm
Thanks Geo and J!
I’m only lvl 39 and taking the Protection spec till 60ish, so I’m all theorycraft unfortunately. =p
I definately like the change for taking Imp. Two handed weapon talent, and even the Devine Strength. I’d try take [2] first. (though Improved Blessing of Wisdom is a very nice gift if your doing PvE) And I couln’t decine now about letting go of Improved Sancity. If you are doing healing, the 6% healing multiplyer is nice ( hmm, I’ll bet better for PvE again though, I’ll see )) About going into Proc to get Gaurdians favor, I know it’s a painful few seconds when BoFreedom runs out when you’re up against a mage/hunter, but those six talents mean no Vengance+ which is a core damage ability in all situations.
I like the more melee approach, which means staying commited to a Two hander and SoC. SoC is such a sweet seal with a slow weapon, and there’s ussually lots of oppertunites to land a judgement with a stunned opponant (when including team mates stuns). Also, correct me if I’m wrong, but deasn’t the swing of the weapon hit immediatly once you’re in range. During PvP combat, we’er all moving around, in and out of range, so it’s an advantage to have a weapon that hits more seldom (just my thought about 2handers). I wonder how this works with SoC procing always seven times a minate?
Regarding the mana pool, ’sustained damage comes from the melee side of it, plus always judging SoC. The burst damage (Holy shock, Hammer of Wrath) is used to ’seal the deal’. Oh ya! and can’t forget Avanging Wrath!
I guess you get the most ‘bang for your buck’ by going ’spell damage and healing done by spells’ gear. I couldn’t see any +holy spell damage gear on Wowhead ( other then an Allience pally sword ). This works fine for the role you play in a group tactic.
I thought that a Paladin would make the best healer (as well as maybe a pain surpression priest) in a PvP encounter, or in the Arena, being behind plate and able to cast uninterupted heals ( when aura switched to concentration ). Being able to heal well not only increases your survivability, but everyone in the party/team. The Procation tree ( not talking Rackoning but other talents), the other approach to personal survivability, would only benefit you. So you might just be ignored or CC’ed until you’re alone with your mates dead =(, like you thought J. Also, I’m excited to try our using Blessing of Sacrifice on a mate, and having that break any CC with the redirected damage.
Well! I’ll just have to see what happens when I get there!
For now, my big excitement is switching over to Protection and trying out reckoning for leveling. Haven’t switched yet, but soon ( Arathi Basin for lvl 39 is so much fun for Horde ~evil grin~ ).
J said,
February 22, 2007 at 9:10 pm
6% healing is good. But you may end up using other Aura more often if you are trying to heal. For example Concentration Aura. So it’s no good for you if you are not using Sanctity Aura anyway. Retribution Pallies who do not care about healings anyone else but themselves don’t have to bother about that. But as a Holy/Ret that might not be your playstyle, especially since you were also mentioning about group pvp in Arena.
I think that as long as you’re within say 5 yards or 10 yards, the swing time will keep counting and you’ll continue hitting them. When you get out of the range though, I’m not really sure how it works then. SoC works better with a slower weapon because of the 7 ppm cap. For 3.8 speed weapon, there’s 44.33% of proccing SoC every hit. But for a 2.0 speed weapon, it’s only 23.33% of proccing. Let’s not forget that a slower weapon generally means high top-end damage, thus SoC procs from such a weapon will have higher damage as well.
I’m sure level 70 pvp instances would be much interesting! You’ll be sick of AB in no time lol.
Joseph said,
February 23, 2007 at 4:03 am
Nive,
Let me start of by saying I am newbie to WoW and to the Paladin class. So, take my opinion for whats its worth. I respeced from Ret to Prot after hitting lvl 44. I noticed that I lvled faster as Prot. If you are trying to lvl fast, then Prot is the way to go. My goal was to get to Outland as fast as possible. Now that I am finally there, I am thinking about switching back to Ret. :)
All,
Here are my newbie question:
1) Is there a build that would be effective switching between one hander/shields and two handers on the fly?
Thanks!
Joseph
Joseph said,
February 23, 2007 at 4:04 am
Also, I noticed that Crusader Strike is never chosen? Any reason why? Thanks!
random guy said,
February 23, 2007 at 6:23 pm
aww man geo lol u stumbled upon the pretty much almost exact same spec as me i hope this spec doesnt become too common and more noticeable and then downgraded in some way in a new patch that would really tick me off.
random guy said,
February 23, 2007 at 6:25 pm
i totally agree with u man i took down a fury warrior real fast no heals or anything just reckoning and SoR +spell Dmg gear and no enchant yet but if ur saying +agi i recommend the new +35 agi to a 2h this goes even better avenging wrath for a quick take down. yea the other guys was right u dont need pursuit of justice get a boot enchant. Btw that warrior told me he was over 10k health hehe
random guy said,
February 23, 2007 at 6:30 pm
c i like to put more fopcus towards spell dmg for best effect from SoR i currently use a wep with 3.60 speed so yea it would also help if u got haste potions for +400 haste rating heres my build any advice would help btw theres a reason i didnt get SoC cuz i hate the gamble of waiting for it to proc when u can have ensured dmg from SoR aslo no imp BoM for me think BoK would b better.
random guy said,
February 23, 2007 at 6:31 pm
oops lol heres the build forgot to link it http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=qZxhth0h0gZVfcxMcucco
Geo said,
February 24, 2007 at 12:51 am
Sup Paladins,
Wow so many comments lately im impressed ^_^ . I will try to answer each persons comment but I hope the comment box doesn’t cut me off again lol.
If you have a slow 2 handed weapon 3.6, 3.7, 3.8 or higher SOC is the winner hands down. 1 SOC crit can = to 5 of the swing damage done by a SOR in a whole fight. And lets face it, if you have a crit rate higher then 18% with crusade for 3%+ bonus on SOTC you have a very high chance to see more then one SOC crit.
I only use the SOR and Vengeance build with a 1 hander unless I am going against a target with very hige dodge, parry, and blocking. I learned that only then will SOR out damage SOC cause those high defensive geared out druids, tankadins, and warriors can dodge and parry half of the SOC dished out and SOC doesn’t crit as often with the high resilience and talent spec out defensive abilities that decreases crit chance on the target.
I tested it out on a full feral level 70 druid with 22% crit rate overal I didn’t crit the whole fight. So in these situations it would only be the one time that I would recommend SOR over SOC. Anyone else SOC for the win!
I have already completed my Thunder and im working on my Dragon Maw 88 dps 200 haste on chance hit. This weapon is perfect for the 1 hander Holy shield ret spec I mentioned before capping of vengeance with 5 points.
Dragon maw with a counter weight enchant and even a haste potion and maybe some haste socketed items and enchants you will absolutely go ballistic with a one hander hehe. But lately im having too much fun with my Thunder so I haven’t had the chance to test that out yet. Back to topic!
For arena PVP Having a Blessing buff on outside of Blessing of Freedom and or Blessing of Sacrafice Rank 1 is a waiste. I love kings, I enjoy Might, and I clap for Wisdome and Blessing of Light. But honestly they are not for arena battles period. If you try to hold on to them you will get CC in a heart beat or kited all day.
I put 2 points in Pursuit of justice cause it works for both running and mount statistics. Not only that it gives you a free slot to put in a buff that can enhance your stats. If I wanted to go all out Vindication then it would be viable to get haste on boots or a meta gem with speed increase. But vindication is more of a luxury flashy debuff. It does what it is meant to do but at this time I have not been utilizing it. I guess the 2 points in pursuit of justice could als go into improved Ret Aura.
That with shield spike, blessing of san, and holy shield would = pain on the melee attackers. So if you got it the enchant, and a 10% crop trinket save the 2 ponits in POJ and use it for Imprv Ret Aura for 1 handers and vindication for 2 handers. But I do not feel the boot enchant is on par with POJ 8% speed increase and Paladins always have to chase down attackers.
31 protection/30 ret is the best on the fly 1 hander 2 hander combo but if your holy/protection use SOR it is still a very solid seal with a 1 hander or 2 hander.
Reckoning is the best leveling talent period 1 hander or 2. But depending on what you choose will determine if you put 5 talent points in 10% increase damage for a 1 hander or 3 points in 6% increase damage on a 2 hander. So choose what fits you best and level away.
As for stats a Paladins # 1 stat should be stamina. Depending on how you combat with your skills your next primary will be based on that. Lots of 2 shot mages out there that hit for 4-5k. Which is why eye for eye is so important now 1500 back to them for 5 k crit on you. Just bubble after hit second hit and mow them down and or heal up.
But what I do is run when I see Arcane power up they blink to catch up, stun them with hammer cant blink again for some time, then repentenance right after. That usually blows their cooldown. If its still up by then bubble and or do quick flash heals to avoid counterspell.
As for the crusader strike comment. After the nerf to crusader strike now being 10 sec cooldown. I personally feel in 10 seconds thats 4-5 hits that can potentially proc rekoning. Reckoning = 2-3 crusader strikes if not more depending on SOC procs. Not only that Sacred Duty is needed for melee paladins. Extra stamina and free bubble with no melee reduction =’s we just won the fight especially if Reckoning is up when we bubble! Can’t have crusader strike and reckoning and sacred duty with reckoning to me is more viable then crusader strike at this time.
Let me stop here before my comments get cut off again lol!
I post more later
Geo
Geo said,
February 24, 2007 at 10:14 am
Hey everyone,
I have been testing out Seal of Righteous and wondering if there was a way that I can maximize its damage. So far I have gotten above 650+ per swing and I judge for 900+ and crit for 1300+ or more.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=qxVZVGzhRh0gZVf0xrMd
You do loose repentenace which is very helpful but you gain a garunteed seal of command hit basically every swing without praying for the crits. This mow downs mobs when reckoning goes off. Test it out its really fun!
Geo Level 70 Paladin Neela Demonsoul PVP
wowPaladin.J said,
February 24, 2007 at 10:42 pm
Joseph: Reckoning build works well with 1h or 2h. Or you can try a holy/ret build which should be okay too. But you will still have to choose one of them as your primary weapon. 1h damage and 2h damage is quite different for a paladin imo.
And I think Kern’s build includes Crusader Strike. Have a look!
Geo: How often does Thunder proc? I’m thinking if I should be going for any other weapons. I feel that the other two is slightly underrated.
chimix said,
February 26, 2007 at 6:40 am
Hi all i playing WoW only a half year and my pally reached only 67lvl, maybe u can give me some suggestions on my current talent build (weapon is 3.8 for now, but i intend to go for oathkeeper 3.6) http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sxx0bZZxfctMcuVIot please dont say i am doing totaly wrong and need another class and build corrections will not help, thanks
Geo said,
February 26, 2007 at 5:04 pm
Sup Paladins,
Chimix your build is solid for dps. 10% resist fear is more viable then lay on hands in pvp but you do get to burn your loh more but its all up to how your playing style is. But from what I see in your build you should be a solid damage dealer.
WowPaladin J. I haven’t gotten Tier 2 Thunder yet. But I have used maces that have 2-4 sec stuns on two handers. With reckoning it goes off alot. Also it goes well with comboing seal of command judgements. Test it out with some of the other stun hammers.
Geo
Deportivo said,
March 7, 2007 at 5:39 pm
Hi my pally is @60 atm and I am working towards my end game pvp build of 31/0/30 (at work atm and so can’t link my build here yet). I will be using Oathkeeper as well, and will probably go for the pvp armor reward until I can find something better.
I got one question about the pvp armor reward. There is Aegis set for +spell dmg/spell crit and Vindication set for +spell dmg/melee crit. I wonder which set should fit more to a typical 31/0/30 build. Should shed me some light please :)
Deportivo
wowPaladin.J said,
March 7, 2007 at 7:26 pm
I personally would say +spell dmg/spell crit. It works well with Holy Shock. Or you could always just get all three sets and rotate accordingly. :)
Deportivo said,
March 8, 2007 at 12:16 am
That would be a hell lot of honors in order to get all three sets lol. Just think that the Vindication set gives +str/melee crit, which works good with the 31/0/30 build, as it is also melee-orientated.
Deportivo
Deportivo said,
March 8, 2007 at 1:10 am
My build will be http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=qVxuMxzhxoZZVbhtMcuV btw.
Deportivo
wowPaladin.J said,
March 8, 2007 at 7:16 am
Hmmm… I would actually say go str/melee now if you’re after melee actions. At least Vindication comes with +spell dmg anyway, so your Holy Shock will still be quite ok.
Deportivo said,
March 8, 2007 at 5:11 pm
Thanks! BTW, any comment about my build? :)
Deportivo
wowPaladin.J said,
March 8, 2007 at 8:24 pm
It seems alright to me. If you are more to melee, why not take Divine Strength over Divine Int? And I’m wondering if Pure of Heart would be a better choice over Sanctified Light… I’m not that familiar with Holy tree unfortunately. :(
random guy said,
March 13, 2007 at 12:32 am
hey it’s me random guy again i recently took up protection/hoyl with tank gear lol it workd good in alot of pvp situations. I was a bit suprised dual weilders were definitely the easiest with holy shield check me out on the armory on the wow site i was looking to c where i need improvement for protection in pvp. My guy’s name is Scghost on uther.
Nive said,
March 16, 2007 at 7:57 pm
greets pallys,
Here’s some useful information on Paladin spell damage co-efficients as well as what spell crit/melee crit affects what seal.
http://www.wowwiki.com/Paladin_ability
Deportivo, You have the identical build that I am currently planning for (31.0.30 all except improved aura). Wen thinking about which stats are most effective for this build, I looking at Seal of Command, which is at the core of my damage dealing. From the wowwiki site, SoC benefits from the melee crit rating, and judging SoC is +spell damage. So I’ll take melee crit over spell crit any chance, along with +spell dmg. I have no idea yet what balance I’ll stick too in regards to int/strength/stamina.
wow consecration spell dmg co-efficient received a massive boost in Wow 2.0 so we should be using a rank 1 consecration all the time!
Good luck experimenting
~Lyceios
Deportivo said,
March 19, 2007 at 4:47 pm
Dear pallies, thanks for your valuable comments :)
Deportivo
Chris said,
April 1, 2007 at 2:23 pm
Hello all pallys, I have been reading this forum for quite a while and lots of that I’ve read hasn’t been any particular help to me due I’m a 2on2 arena player. Still lots outside the 2on2 world has helped me alot though! So dont feel that I am stomping on you.
First of all I play 2on2 with a warrior and it goes really well, getting closer to get all the parts of the gladiator set all the time. Laying around 2000-2200 rating.
And for all of those who actually plays 2on2 with a warrior knows what I’m talking about when I say I skip retribution. A warrior needs to much support and a pally would be useless going retribution against some caster setups.
This is my build (only for arena 2on2)
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=aVxuMxzheRxVMucRh
Why I have 2 points in Guardian’s Favor you must know by just reading what I’ve writen, I play with a warrior and he needs Blessing of freedom kind alot
And I work as a healer just helping with bursts when needed.
Still I think I want an oppinion about my build, cause who doesn’t want some improvements? :)
Bloodplet said,
September 4, 2008 at 11:53 am
Sup all. I have been reading this for a while and have gone with the build Geo put forward:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=aZVGzhRh0gZVfztr0uVco
Except I didn’t put any points in POJ, I maxed Vindication.
I dueled a Resto Shaman last night and it lasted more than half an hour :S had troubles finighing him off and ended up giving up. You guys got any suggestions as to how to beat em?